Ep. 1 Matriarchy is a Circle, What Slow Business Means and Is a Circular Business Truly Possible?

Amy: Hi, I'm Amy and this is Abi.

Abi: Hi!

Amy: We are serial entrepreneurs, joint co-founders, sisters-in-law, and friends. We've scaled and sold multiple businesses over the years, but we've also learned there's a lot more to business than profit. We've had a real awakening over the last six to twelve months and we're very excited to have you join us on our journey, as we learn more about slow and considered business and how it has the power to change the world.

Abi: Welcome to the Slow Circle, a podcast for mindful business owners or wannabe business owners, or just conscious people who work in business and feel there has to be a better way. Join us while we discuss all the ways in which we can operate from a place of truth and integrity, alongside having all the success we desire. This podcast is paid for by our own business, Rebrandr, a digital brand marketing and creative studio.

Amy: Hello!

Abi: Hi!

Amy: Welcome, welcome to episode one, which I have put a title down, but we haven't actually discussed it, so I think this is what we're going to talk about. I've put matriarchy is a circle, what slow business means, and whether a circular business is truly possible. So that's the guidance, I suppose for what I'm hoping we will cover in this episode, but let's see, we might get completely sidetracked.

Abi: As we do.

Amy: Yeah, I mean, each of those, there's a few things there, but each of those probably could merit a very long conversation.

Abi: Definitely. Maybe we don't get sidetracked, maybe we follow the thread of intuition down a certain route.

Amy: Yes, yes. So, I think a good place to start would be really talking about why we picked this title for the podcast, which is The Slow Circle. And I think it would be great to chat about the circle and kind of what that means to us in relation to matriarchy and patriarchy. And yeah, do you want to explain that a little bit more?

Abi: Yeah, so I guess, I mean, there are different ways to come at it, right? And we've encountered so many different business owners over the years that have had different concentrations of beliefs around patriarchy and matriarchy and what have you. And I think having explored it from different perspectives quite often, I've come to the personal conclusion that patriarchy is this hierarchical organisation and so many of the systems that we have currently in society, particularly in Western society, follow that patriarchal model where there is a hierarchical order, someone's at the top, someone's at the bottom and then there are different places in between. And the interesting thing about that I think is that it feels like quite an old-fashioned setup, traditional setup, however you want to frame that. But it comes from a place from years ago when businesses were first established before women were really in the workplace. And so it was created by men, for men, not at the express exclusion of women.

Amy: No, right, we don't blame men for doing it.

Abi: Right, but it's just that there was nobody to represent women in the workplace at that time. So it very naturally fell into this other way of organising itself. But what a lot of people think matriarchy means is exactly the same as patriarchy, but with women, in that hierarchical order. And actually what matriarchy truly means is that when women form a system, it tends to be a circle, the structure is entirely different. And there isn't this hierarchical order and organisation to it. It's more of a collaborative equality. And you know, you and I have experience where we've worked within that framework. And it's a beautiful, inspiring, uplifting, energising place to be. And what is interesting now is that I don't think it has to be that way only if women are involved. It's just that it's a different way of looking at it. And women have very naturally, or should I say, women have the natural way of applying themselves that falls into that setup really easily. I mean, you talk often about the gathering, hunter gathering.

Amy: Yeah, yeah. So if you think back to kind of hunter gather times, it makes sense that the man would have their eye on a target, what they were hunting. And they would be fully focused in on that and that alone. And just going for that one thing, whereas the women who were foraging would be, it's much more lateral. Is that the right kind of? It's more like lots of get a little bit over here and I'll get a little bit over there. It's a broad view. And I mean, it's not crazy to think that like everyone knows that kind of saying that men can't multitask, that’s well known. But there is some sense in that because they have their eye on the target. And I think that kind of in the business world, you think how that has worked. I think it means that men often have their eye on the one target, which is profitability. And perhaps women have their eyes on many different elements of business and what it means, and it's not just about profitability. And that's not to say that, like what you just said about patriarchy being that kind of more linear and matriarchy being a circle, matriarchy isn't the opposite. So it doesn't mean that the women's way is anti-profit and the opposite. It's not the opposite. It's just a different way where profits are part of it. And you know, profit is brilliant for many different reasons. It means the business can continue. It means that more money can be put into different things that are important to you as a business. But it's not the only consideration.

Abi: No. And it's not the only measure of success. Well, here's a question. Do you think it's that men tend to be, or find it easier or more naturally aligned with the end result, and women are more focused on the process?

Amy: Yeah. I think so. I think so. And I think that would make sense, right? Again, thinking about the hunter-gatherer times because I think I've read somewhere, men would go out hunting and it was one in ten times they would actually catch something. So it was failure or we've got something and there's no in between. And the women would, there was just enough, right? Abundance. There was enough berries, enough nuts or seeds or whatever it is that you're foraging. There's just enough of it always. So it changes your approach, I think. If you know that there's always enough and that you can always get a little bit. You are kind of enjoying the process. It's not the end goal - got to get to the end. It's gathering and then giving. And that was also kind of the way that it was that women would gather and then they would give some of the berries to their neighbour. 

Abi: Right. And then their neighbours got some nuts and would share some of them and it just becomes, just very mutual collaborative effort. I mean that really resonates with me based on the experience we've had of leading a team of women, right? Which was very much like a circular. We were lucky enough that we, however, you want to put it, found, hired maybe they came to us, they wanted to work with us, however you frame that. But we were lucky enough to have such incredible talented people to work with, that they knew their thing better than we did. And they were generous enough to share that with us.

Amy: Right. Exactly. If you think of it in that old fashioned way, it would be like there's the person that always knows where the best berries are. So they're going to get that.

Abi: So you want them on your team. Amy: You want them on your team because you always want those berries, but it's not a competitive, well I'm going to go and steal that berry patch. It's oh great, I'll have a bit of that and you can have a bit of this. And it's much more open and collaborative and…

Abi: Valued as well.

Amy: Yeah. I think so. Yeah. 

Abi: It’s a different value system, isn't it?

Amy: Yeah, definitely. And I think then moving on slightly, but the kind of idea around circle, as in a small business circle or a women's circle, we have been doing our own small business circle with women. I never want to say small business women. It sounds like the women are small, the small business, it is women in our circle.

Abi: But they're not all small.

Amy: But we've been doing that for how many, it is nine months? No it can’t be. Eight?

Abi: I think, well, I before we held it together in this capacity held it in a physical space, just when Eden was like six months old. And he's going to be three in September.

Amy: Well, that's what I was going to say. I have a relatively new experience of the circle and I'd never experienced anything like it before we started this. So yeah, just to explain what we do, it's weekly, remote meetups with a group that happens to be women that all work in business, majority have their own businesses. And it's just space for us all to come together and go through certain topics and talk. But yeah, I'd never experienced anything like that before. And I guess I didn't really know the difference between a circle and just a meeting or a meetup or a chat or whatever, but you have got experience, like you say, you've held a physical circle before and you've also attended.

Abi: Yeah, I've been part of circles not in business, in other topics, capacities, whatever.

Amy: So what would you say is the main difference between a circle in that respect, in comparison to a meeting or a seminar, or a workshop.

Abi: I think if we go back to that value system of collaboration and equality, that applies to the circle as well. Within that hour that we hold that space, everybody has equal opportunity to share and give input to the topic at hand, right? And so it literally is, I know we’re not physically together, we're talking via Google Meets, but it is in my mind like we are in a circle. And we move through in the shape of a circle, every person, but it flows really beautifully. And yeah, some weeks someone talks more than others and really what I love about it is that it's a safe space. It's a supportive space. It has that within these walls ideology around the conversation doesn't go further than the here and now. But it also gives us, as it can be quite lonely, right? Being an entrepreneur, or even being a woman in business, right? Because as we've touched on, there's so many businesses that exist of this model that doesn't necessarily align with the way women work. And so it can be quite lonely. Sometimes you have to feel like you're rowing against the tide and to come into a circle where it's a safe space, it's contained, you are an equal and you have an equal right to listen, and also speak. I think it's really important to have an hour a week where you know that you are just another version of normal. And other people there are the same as you and we all value each other and we all want to hear what each other has to say about whatever topic we're talking about. And I feel like that's the key difference really between other meetings is that nobody's really leading it. Yeah, we run it, and I often start by sharing my thoughts first to kind of, you know, I guess transition into the official conversation rather than the general chit chat, but nobody is in charge. But then it doesn't become a free for all. Because we women have this innate way of falling into…

Amy: Giving space, like you say, so letting each person give space. And even this week's circle is a good example where I had quite a lot that I had in my mind to talk about. And then in the end, I thought it doesn't feel right actually, once other people are spoken to talk about that this week, I'm going to hold that back because the conversation had kind of gone in a different way. And you can feel the energy and what everyone's kind of talking about. I think it's a really beautiful space. And I think the idea behind that and the way that that feels and bringing that actually to a podcast. So obviously, this isn't a circle in the fact that it is just the two of us talking. Hopefully we'll have some guests come on as well and it'll be a bit bigger, but I think that idea of it being that safe space and that the listener does feel a part of that. And actually, I think the most beautiful thing about the circle is that everybody comes with different experience, different life experience, different, you've had all had different experiences that day, that week. And yet, no matter what we talk about, it's like everybody gets something out of it and it might not be the same thing. It’s often not the same thing. But there's something in the conversation that you're like, I needed that. And I hope that that's what this podcast can do for people is that even if it's not in the way that we meant.

Abi: Yeah. Exactly. And I think the other thing as well, of course, is the people that tend to come to the circles and even the people that the brands that we end up working with, are people that have that voice in their heads telling them there has to be a different way to do this. We seem to just align with those people and those are the people that find us. And so we have such amazing conversations about different topics, topics that are the elephant in the room in business normally, nobody looks directly at it or nobody wants to talk about it, because don't be silly, that's not the way it's always been done. But we want to create a conversation. We want to remove the taboo and bring into the day to day. These important topics that all of us resonate with. And sometimes you just have to say it to someone and people like, oh my goodness, I've been feeling like that. You know, because also one final thought on the circles, it can be like we often feel to exist, to exist, leave that there. But then thrive and succeed within business, we have to fit into the preconceived ideas of what that business is. And we can be as women, emotional, intuitive, this softness, which we have to deny, or we feel we have to deny it, doesn't feel safe to not deny it in business. And so, sometimes these women circles, they can be like the lid got let off, right? It can be emotional. We've had tears.

Amy: We had a lot of tears this week.

Abi: Right. And I think that's really important. It doesn't mean you're not a good business person, right? If you're not hard-nosed. It's important to embrace this multifaceted version of ourselves in order to really step into our power. And then to utilise that. That's a gift.

Amy: And actually, what you just said about the kind of softer side of women, I think it's a great thing, but also it means that we can also be easier to mould, which is where we get sucked into doing things the way that other people want to do them. Or we are kind of, if you think we are kind of more naturally the caring type where you want to look after everybody. And I think that can lead to kind of people pleasing and going into situations and being moulded in certain ways. So kind of taking that back and then like you say, trying to own it and make it a bit more of a power and say, no, this is how I want to run my business.

Abi: Right. Right. Or at least recognising when you do, we call it shape shifting, right? When you do shift shapes, it's a conscious thing. I'm deciding to meet you where you're at right now. But I know that those are not my boundaries, parameters, standards. But I'm being flexible right now and I'm choosing to meet you where you're at, but I'm going to come back to where I sit in my integrity later.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. It’s the conscious ability.

Abi: Yeah. Rather than just doing it because we feel that we have to bend to somebody else's way.

Amy: Yeah. And I think kind of leading on from that, something that fascinates me and I know that fascinates you as well is talking actually about circular business and circular economy. And something that really interests me is that I think you did some research before and there were studies to show that women in business are more likely to then put the money that they make back into the community.

Abi: Yeah. And I think it was something like, I probably shouldn't quote statistics without double checking my facts. But it was something like 50% more likely, women than the male counterparts to use the profit that they've made to put back into the community and the society.

Amy: And isn't that really so interesting thinking about where we are as a society within business that business as it stands normally is very linear. And if you were to think of a product-based business, the normal way is you take something, so you might take the materials and then from the land or from wherever the materials come from, so you take and then you make with that and often it's someone else that's making it. So you take, you make, then you sell and then it gets used and then it gets wasted. But it's a complete straight line. It's linear. And this idea behind circular business is of course that you still take, you still make, you still sell, but at some point in there it's then being put back in, right? Something's being put back into the beginning. In the fashion world you could say it with cotton, it would be if you take that much cotton from the fields, then you're going to replant the same amount of cotton fields or more.

Abi: Well, everybody used to talk about it being the same amount of cotton, right? Replace what you use. But actually that is not regenerating.

Amy: No, that's...

Abi: Oh, sorry. I thought it stopped recording.

Amy: I saw you shock on your face.

Abi: I know. I was like, oh! Yeah. So that's what people used to think of, and then I think that they realize that as we've gone more down this route of regenerative farming, you know, actually to have... It's not just about replacing what you've done because actually, I mean, I could go off in a tangent here, but there's loads about the soil quality and how they say there's like 40 years left of soil, good soil that we can use to grow stuff, because it's just being used and used and used and all of the minerals and nutrients are being taken stripped out of it, particularly then when you are not focusing on organic, right? That's a whole different thing. But if you can find a way instead of just keep reusing soil... Because it's not just about the cotton, you could pick the cotton, you could replant cotton, but then what are you doing to the soil? And how does that impact everything?

Amy: That's really interesting.

Abi: Right. So it's about regenerating that soil, how do you put back into it? So yeah, you can even say, it used to be you take a field of cotton, you plant a field of cotton, then people start thinking, okay, you take a field of cotton, now let's plant two fields of cotton to give something back. But actually now it's, what do we do about the soil? How do we care about the soil, you know?

Amy: It's really interesting because I was thinking about... So I was thinking about that circular model and how first of all, that's really difficult because nothing has been set up that way. Everything's been set up in the more linear way. But then secondly, actually, where I think a lot of people are currently is instead of being circular, they're more... I mean, maybe you would still call it circular in some way, but to me it's still very much a line, but it's a responsible line - where you're responsibly taking, responsibly making. So whether that's making sure the people are paid fairly, and you know, you're boosting their economy in a way, in actually a good way, in a truly good way. And then you're selling, I think, also in a responsible way, where you're perhaps also taking on some responsibility to educate your consumer about the process or what they do with the product at the end. And then at the end, perhaps the product is, instead of wasted, maybe it decomposes or it can be recycled.

Abi: Which if you've made it consciously with natural fibers, that's more likely to be possible.

Amy: But to me that is still a line, right? Because you're not necessarily putting back in. But I suppose you are putting back in if you are making sure that you're doing things responsibly to some extent. But that was kind of going to be one of my questions, because actually that's the majority of the mindful, ethical, sustainable businesses that we've worked with or we've worked on ourselves, are more of that kind of responsible line rather than completely circular. But the point that you say about the soil, that's really interesting, because it is more than just doing things well, it is making sure that every step isn't kind of destroying or damaging.

Abi: Right. And there was so many thoughts I have around this, there's a lot of conversation isn't there, around greenwashing, and people claiming that they think that they have green and ethical and sustainable practices when actually they don't. Just labeling something as organic, which you can actually do quite easily without it being certified, isn't environmentally friendly, per se. But then the difficulty is, I'm not a very binary person, I'm not very good at seeing it's this or it's this. So I kind of explore all these places in my head, but if you really strip it back, surely anyone making anything new has an element of, of not greenwashing, that's not the right word, but when you really go through what that is, can it ever truly be a sustainable option? And so I find it really hard to then think about circular models and regenerative models, because the reality is that we do need new stuff. We do.

Amy: And if you don't make it someone else is going to.

Abi: Right, and they may not make it in a conscious way. It's better to create a conscious option. And I think that about independent business too. I mean, it's been a rocky couple of years for independent businesses, but if they close, then all we have left is, we're forced to buy from corporate giants. So I feel like that one thing to explore and to recognise, we can only ever do the best we can with what we have at the time, whether that's information, whether that's materials, whether that's industry norms, whether that's, whatever, we can only do the best we can with what we have at the time. And sometimes that is linear, and we have to accept that progress is better than not making any progress at all, right? Because otherwise, none of us would take action, none of us would-- you know, we have to be constantly evolving and constantly improving.

Amy: It's the same with just general life, right? If you get so caught up on being perfect in every way, not leaving any form of footprint, you're not going to be able to do it. And if that's your standard, you're going to feel defeated. So it is just doing as much as you can. And I think things become easier the more people do it as well, right? So, I mean, we work with lots of ethical and sustainable businesses, but some of them have been around for, say, 15, 20 years, and they say when they started, there was no one else doing it. It's amazing how far it has come.

Abi: Right. And then it makes it more accessible for other people wanting to do it, because the people actually making it can then be more competitive with pricing, because what often puts the price up is that it deviates from the norm where they can just mass do something. And I say mass not to the standard a lot of people think of mass, but, you know, but it's the same with circular models. Circular models are not always easy or possible, because the infrastructure is not there in order to do it.

Amy: Yet.

Abi: Right. And I remember, when we started six years ago, producing sustainable fashion, I wanted it to be a circular model. And in the end, we had to bank that, put a pin in it, pause it, and go down the more linear, but still responsible, while we continued to work on the circular thing. And it was, like, six years of working out, how can we do this?

Amy: And even that process, even the responsible linear approach, I think there were so many times where we would say, "Can we do this?" And people would go, "No, that's not the way it's done." And we'd be like, "Yeah, but why?" It basically became our catchphrase, right? Yeah, but why is it done that way? That's just the way it's done. But actually, the more times you then changed it, you think, well, the next person that comes along, the next business that comes along, they've got that option that you have pushed, that door that you've pushed and that you've opened. So that's really amazing and exciting, I think.

Abi: Yeah, I think so too. And the more people who are just willing to, I think, also, there's an element of remaining humble, and saying, actually, we thought that this was the most responsible way to do it. But now that I've learnt this, I realised there was a more responsible way, you know?

Amy: It's a process, for sure.

Abi: It is a process. And that's kind of where we're coming out with the concept of slow business, right? And conscious business. You may decide to continue doing what you've always done. But do it from a place of consideration, ree-evaluate what you're doing in your practice, and decide, yes, I'm going to continue doing it that way, rather than just doing it because you've not stopped questioning it.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. And that leads on really nicely, actually. So we've spoken quite a lot about the circle, kind of what the word circle means to us in different ways. But, yeah, that word slow, it has so many negative connotations in so many ways. But then, in other ways, it has kind of, I don't know, been reborn, if you think of slow living, slow food, slow fashion, even slow travel has been kind of coined as a term. And they're all seen as really positive ways of operating and of life. And it's applying that same principle, I suppose, to business. And trying to take away those negative connotations that you might first, I mean, you might first just think, well, I don't want a slow business. Maybe you think slow business, maybe you're not adapting or you're doing things the old way, you're not changing, you're not staying up today or you're behind,or that your sales are slow. And actually, I don't think it means any of those things at all. 

Abi: No, not to us.

Amy: No, yeah. Definitely not. I think it means a lot more, it means that, like you say, it's considered. And if you apply this, the same thing to food, for example, when fast food would have first been invented and came out, it would have been an amazing thing.

Abi: Revolutionary.

Amy: Fast food. But now, when we would go to the North of Portugal, we're going a coffee shop, you couldn't take it away. And I think it took us a little while to figure that out. We're like, why won't they let us have a takeaway cup? And actually, we were forced to order a coffee and then sit down and enjoy it slowly.

Abi: And also feel the effects of it. Feel the effects of it. So then you don't just neck another espresso. Because you're not stopping to feel the effects. And that is the same with business. We're being deliberate. If we have 40 years left of good soil, the impact of that is huge, not just cotton, food. The impact of that is huge. And so we need to become more aware of our deliberate choices and allow ourselves time to feel the effect of and the impact of those choices.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. It's so true and it's so powerful. And I think it's a really beautiful way to think about business, really. And I don't think like it's excluding men at all, but I do again coming back to that kind of way of being. I do think it is probably a more feminine approach. And actually within the last few months, even, we've spoken to multiple business owners, small business owners, the business is small. But without even pushing them into it, they have all said the same thing that they don't want their business to be huge. They don't want this growth that is so fast and hard to keep up with. Like they want slow and steady because it's not sustainable. And it's just been quite inspirational to hear so many people say, I want this. What do I actually want from this business? I want it to support me and my family. And some people, you know, still want more than that. I don't think we have to limit it to let's keep small businesses tiny even though I think you can.

Abi: Right, you can grow in a couple, but it's about doing it in a deliberate, considered, conscious way.

Amy: In the way that you wanted to. Don't just grow because that's what businesses are meant to do.

Abi: Right. And the traditional models of business tell us to, that growth and profit are the measure of success.

Amy: Right. Maybe, but maybe that is what you want. And I think then that's absolutely fine. Coming about it from that considered place, but still from a slow, considered sustainable way, where you're thinking about, well, how am I going to grow to that point? And what's that going to mean for myself and my family and the team that I have? Really just thinking all of it through.

Abi: Yeah. Yeah. Feeling the effects of it.

Amy: Yeah, definitely. And I think also thinking about, well, I suppose the slow business, but also the circular business model in not just product-based businesses, but also service based businesses, it's quite interesting. And maybe it's easier to do because there's less infrastructure and supply chains and things to think about. But I still think there lots of businesses are very transactional. And it's, you want this service and here it is. And I think there's something in that as well, slowing down and being a bit more, it is supportive as in you're giving berries to your neighbour. Rather than you’ve paid me for the meat that I've caught, here is.

Abi: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, for me, for sure, and I know for you too, that's why we wanted to start Rebrandr, as a creative studio, is to share everything that we've learned over the years. And to actually feel like we're having a tangible impact in the businesses of others. Because I also, there are so many ways you can help people. One, if you're looking at is charity, giving, right? But then how beyond that do you create sustainable change in the lives of people that needed the charity in the first place? How do you support them to support themselves as the next step? We've spoken a lot about how we can incorporate that into our business model now. But I really feel like that is the way to create sustainable impact and change for people. And it feels like not only are we having a tangible effect, good effect on existing businesses, but how can we impact women or other conscious creators who perhaps aren't yet ready or haven't yet had the opportunity to start their own business? You know?

Amy: And I think it has a ripple effect as well, like what you said about, we can't remember the exact statistics, but if we do know, and it was backed up by multiple studies, that women in business, the money they make they will be put back into their community and other small businesses. Imagine the power of, even if we support 10 businesses this year, this month, whatever you want to say, it's not just those 10 businesses that you are impacting. If they're the kind of people that are then going to go back and give, but we support them, they make more money, they put that money then into the other small businesses that surround them in the community, it can have a huge ripple effect.

Abi: Definitely, definitely. And if, we all know, right, when we're like out in the day, if someone smiles or a little act of kindness, the difference that that makes on your day and how that makes you feel and how you probably are more likely than to pass it to somebody else. Right. And so why don't we apply those principles to business? You know, it's not about competitive, I need to do better than you. Let's share, we all have different skill sets, we all are a resource. If we could create this collaborative network where we support each other, we're for sure better together. 

Amy: Definitely stronger, more skills and variety. definitely. And kind of going back a little bit to the circular business model, and also circular economy. One thing that really interests me, and I'd love to ask what you think about it is really thinking about business tax and how this falls into circularity and or circular economy, because I think actually it's only recently that I've kind of started thinking of it in that way. And I think as a society, definitely in the UK, and I'd say probably in the States as well, we're definitely kind of conditioned to think that tax is bad. And I can understand that we might not always be happy with where the money goes, and where it's allocated and stuff like that. But actually thinking about that from this, ‘we're all looking for having more circular businesses’, but it's kind of right there in front of us that we are, you know, as part of our money is being taken so that it can be reallocated into our society. I kind of heard someone frame it that way recently, and it really took me back, so I was like, why is everyone trying to avoid? I could get why people are trying to avoid that tax, but at the same time, I don't know, it's just a real interesting thought because lots of small business owners are trying to avoid it. But then at the same time, it's boycott Amazon because they're avoiding tax, and I get that, they're the big guys. But then do we as smaller businesses? Where's the line? Yeah, I don't know.

Abi: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I don't know where the line is, but I did hear a story about a man who was so annoyed about paying his taxes that he made a vow to the following tax year, manage his taxes better, and, you know, try and do as much as he can to reduce as much tax as possible, and he didn't make any profit, so he didn't have to pay any tax. And he totally manifested that way himself.

Amy: Well, it is a mind set, isn’t it? If you're always getting annoyed at your tax bill, then I think you are almost holding it like, oh, I hope my tax bill's not that big next year, like, no, I hope my tax bill is the biggest tax bill next year, and I'm going to feel good about it, and into kind of positive about putting that money back in. And like I say, I understand that it's kind of a political topic, and then thinking, where is it going? And are you happy with exactly where it's going? But it's kind of half the work being done for you. And especially if you look at societies like Denmark or Sweden or wherever, where they are paying higher taxes, but then their society is a lot more happy or better for it.

Abi: Yeah, I mean, you look at the national infrastructures that we have here, like the NHS, like public schools, you can be someone who doesn't believe in mainstream healthcare, and you can be someone who homeschools, but I think it's still important that those systems exist. And I think, I'm saying this as someone who actually does homeschool, does use a lot of alternative health. But the NHS for sure, saves lives, and that's what it should be there for. If we all took accountability and ownership for our health, this is going off on a right tangent now, but we then wouldn't end up needing to use it as much, and it could be there more to help the people really need it. And I feel like it's the same thing with business tax. That would be a rabbit hole to talk about how the resources are allocated, but without that money, those infrastructures wouldn't exist, and the NHS wouldn't be able to save lives. I feel that kind of sums it up.

Amy: Yeah, it does. It does really nicely. It just interests me, the change of perspective on it. And I was talking to a friend recently who's from South America, and she was just talking about how much she loves the UK and all of the systems and everything that we hate and moan about. All the time. And yeah actually, it is that mindset, is it is?

Abi: It is. And I actually heard a story the other day that was saying how you can be really annoyed that a mosquito is biting you and you can hate mosquitoes. I hate mosquito bites and be really inconvenienced by them and how itchy they are and be covered in them and blah, blah, blah, or you can recognise or reframe it that a mosquito is taking an element of your DNA and integrating it into the ecosystem. Like, wow, you and nature are directly linked on another plane because of that mosquito. And it's all about how you frame it.

Amy: Yeah, it is totally.

Abi: It's that famous saying, isn't it? You can rejoice that thorns have roses or you can despair because roses have thorns.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I think it sums up so much in our kind of approach to business. And kind of coming back to the circle space. I think we try and make space for more difficult topics and harder times and challenges. But we also really try and uplift and, I suppose, change perspectives, but also just briefly, and I think this could be a whole subject on its own. But that idea of that like I said, you can not be entirely focused on profit, but you can still have all the success that you want by operating in this way.

Abi: And you want being the key. What is it that you want? How do you define that?

Amy: And especially in the world of where there's so many business hacks or wake up at 5 a.m. and you'll get, and I can, you know, dip into these things and I can see the benefit of, oh, I've got a bit more time, but actually, then I go, but now I'm really tired. And I think I'll actually do better work or feel better if I'd just slept for another hour.

Abi: I know I really do know, you see influencers get up at five and do this and this and this and then 8 a.m. I'm ready to start my day. And I’m like what?! Actually I think if we just had more, it's 80% mindset, 20% output, right? It's 80% inside here, inside your head. Like if we just tapped into the power of that and holding space for each other and supporting each other, wow.

Amy: Yeah, wow. But also creating that community, that circle where you have space to do that because I think one of the things that we see all the time when we're talking to people, business owners is they think that they're the only person that's dealing with these things. And people are like, oh, this has happened. We don't come across new problems. There's only a few types of problems. And yes, it might feel different or stronger for some people and some people might take it in different ways, but everyone's kind of going through the same thing. Yeah. And making space for that, I feel like sometimes just someone hearing, oh, I'm also dealing with that. Oh, that's happening to me. Makes everyone go, oh, wow.

Abi: And recognizing it's a choice, right? That 80% / 20% thing. It's actually a choice. You can choose to see that that roses have thorns or you can choose to see that thorns have roses. And you can also choose to operate from a different place for the 80% mindset. And you will see the results.

Amy: It’s that classic case of choosing what your story is, right? Because there might be certain facts of what's happened to you, but then it is thinking, well, how do I frame that? This terrible thing happened to me. So now I'm a failure or this terrible thing happened to me. And that's given me the motivation to go and do this other thing that's amazing. It's exactly the same thing that's happened, but it's the way that you kind of look at it and what you take away from it.

Abi: Yeah, I love that.

Amy: Okay. Was there anything else that we needed to touch on? Wwe wanted to talk about slow circular business. And I think that's kind of the topics that we will touch on in different ways. I don't feel there's anything else that we need to touch on right now.

Abi: Okay. Well, maybe that's a good starting place. And then we can break it down and do deep dives.

Amy: The next one on my mind, the next topic is actually redefining success in business.

Abi: Oh, I love that topic.

Amy: And we started touching on it there, but I thought that I think there's so much to say on that.

Abi: Yeah, so much.

Amy: We can go really deep on that. I think let's leave it there.

Abi: We made it.

Amy: We talked about all things circular, slow. We hope you have enjoyed the circle and the space. And we hope you'll join us again next time.

Abi: Yeah. Let us know. We'd love to hear from you. And hopefully we'll connect again soon. Bye for now.

Amy: Bye.

Abi: This podcast is paid for by our own business, Rebrandr, a digital brand marketing and creative studio. We specialize in supporting conscious businesses with a range of services from branding, social media management, website design and photo shoots to ongoing business coaching and more. You can learn more about our services at www.rebrandr.co.uk or please send us a DM we'd love to hear from you.